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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:24 am 
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Peasant

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 3:26 am
Posts: 8
so me and a friend have been playing civcraft for a while and recently he was looking at through plugins on bukkit. he was looking at one called towny and noticed that civcraft had some commands just like it and then did some research and found out that civcraft has stolen the coding from towny and modified it. oh and the guy making towny made it clear he doesn't want his plugin to be modified by anyone. i wonder what other plugins are being used to make civcraft without permission.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:12 am 
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Settler

Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:48 am
Posts: 33
Don't quote me but I believe Minecraft is open source meaning no one can own what they have created. Notch himself said he want's people to Mod. So even if this was true theres nothing anyone can do, just the creator of Towny would feel cheated or more likely that his/her creation has spawned a new look on their creation.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:18 am 
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Prince

Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:41 pm
Posts: 102
loganlush wrote:
so me and a friend have been playing civcraft for a while and recently he was looking at through plugins on bukkit. he was looking at one called towny and noticed that civcraft had some commands just like it and then did some research and found out that civcraft has stolen the coding from towny and modified it. oh and the guy making towny made it clear he doesn't want his plugin to be modified by anyone. i wonder what other plugins are being used to make civcraft without permission.


There's a difference between "copied" code and "reverse-engineered" code. The second is more likely than the first, and if his source code is published then it's an open source plugin anyway. There's no way to really know for certain though since civcraft isn't an open source plugin. There's also the possibility they simply programmed what they needed and it had similar functionality. Civcraft does a LOT more than towny does.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:32 am 
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Peasant

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 3:26 am
Posts: 8
Raptorblaze wrote:
loganlush wrote:
so me and a friend have been playing civcraft for a while and recently he was looking at through plugins on bukkit. he was looking at one called towny and noticed that civcraft had some commands just like it and then did some research and found out that civcraft has stolen the coding from towny and modified it. oh and the guy making towny made it clear he doesn't want his plugin to be modified by anyone. i wonder what other plugins are being used to make civcraft without permission.


There's a difference between "copied" code and "reverse-engineered" code. The second is more likely than the first, and if his source code is published then it's an open source plugin anyway. There's no way to really know for certain though since civcraft isn't an open source plugin. There's also the possibility they simply programmed what they needed and it had similar functionality. Civcraft does a LOT more than towny does.


Funny how in this post netizen admits to modifying towny.

http://www.the-netizen.com/?p=51

According to the license that is not allowed.

https://github.com/ElgarL/Towny the license is referenced at the bottom of the readme.

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

Now you can parse this any way you want, this plugin may be closed or what ever, Netizen has modified code with out permission. That is copy write infringement no matter how you look at it.

They have also been sent a Cease and Desist Notice and have so far ignored it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:26 am 
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Warrior

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 3:35 pm
Posts: 94
Towny Advanced is a Fork of the original Towny (or maybe of Fork of a Fork of the original Towny).

Just saying.

PS: Also the CC licences are not made for software...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:52 am 
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Prince

Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:41 pm
Posts: 102
loganlush wrote:
Raptorblaze wrote:
loganlush wrote:
so me and a friend have been playing civcraft for a while and recently he was looking at through plugins on bukkit. he was looking at one called towny and noticed that civcraft had some commands just like it and then did some research and found out that civcraft has stolen the coding from towny and modified it. oh and the guy making towny made it clear he doesn't want his plugin to be modified by anyone. i wonder what other plugins are being used to make civcraft without permission.


There's a difference between "copied" code and "reverse-engineered" code. The second is more likely than the first, and if his source code is published then it's an open source plugin anyway. There's no way to really know for certain though since civcraft isn't an open source plugin. There's also the possibility they simply programmed what they needed and it had similar functionality. Civcraft does a LOT more than towny does.


Funny how in this post netizen admits to modifying towny.

http://www.the-netizen.com/?p=51

According to the license that is not allowed.

https://github.com/ElgarL/Towny the license is referenced at the bottom of the readme.

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

Now you can parse this any way you want, this plugin may be closed or what ever, Netizen has modified code with out permission. That is copy write infringement no matter how you look at it.

They have also been sent a Cease and Desist Notice and have so far ignored it.


It's not Copyright infringement unless the original programmer filed an application and was granted a copyright on the intellectual property.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:13 pm 
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AvRGaming Staff

Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:47 am
Posts: 1622
Quote:
so me and a friend have been playing civcraft for a while and recently he was looking at through plugins on bukkit. he was looking at one called towny and noticed that civcraft had some commands just like it and then did some research and found out that civcraft has stolen the coding from towny and modified it. oh and the guy making towny made it clear he doesn't want his plugin to be modified by anyone. i wonder what other plugins are being used to make civcraft without permission.


CivCraft doesn't use any code from Towny. Would you mind pointing out which parts of CivCraft you think are using Towny code?

Quote:
Funny how in this post netizen admits to modifying towny.
http://www.the-netizen.com/?p=51


This is a blog post from September 2012. At the time we were developing the structures/wonders/culture and diplomacny functions in an early version of CivCraft, and running a testing server which used Towny to handle the block permissions. The full, relevant quote from that blog post is:
Code:
Now [CivCraft] has evolved into a full fledged Civilization inspired mod for Minecraft. It still piggy backs on top of Towny for block permissions, but I’m working at chipping it away as I replace and optimize it for my needs.


Which indicates that I was working on our own mod and using Towny (much in the same way we still use other bukkit plugins) for the beta server we ran. When that server had a meltdown in earlier this year, we decided to get rid Towny handling the block permissions. Please see this post as a reference(http://civcraft.net/?p=644) in which I state publicly that Towny would no longer be a plugin used on our server. Any of the old beta members who played the old version of what I call "CivTowny" will be able to tell you that the mod was much different due to being used with Towny. You could only have towns, not civs, no group permissions, no technology research, and several other features.



Quote:
According to the license that is not allowed.
Now it has evolved into a full fledged Civilization inspired mod for Minecraft. It still piggy backs on top of Towny for block permissions, but I’m working at chipping it away as I replace and optimize it for my needs. the license is referenced at the bottom of the readme.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/
Now you can parse this any way you want, this plugin may be closed or what ever, Netizen has modified code with out permission. That is copy write infringement no matter how you look at it.


If you go to the "commits" section on the github for Towny (https://github.com/ElgarL/Towny/commits/master), you'll notice that the license was actually added 3 days ago immediately before he sent a cease and desist letter to me. I'm not sure that licenses can be applied retroactively, but in any case it really doesn't matter, because CivCraft doesn't use any code from Towny and is not subject to any terms of any license he feels he wants to put on it.

He claimed to have lots of evidence and testimonials that the current version of CivCraft is running his code. I've asked him for clarification and to show this evidence, but he has yet to provide any. I got curious and looked up in our server logs to see if he had connected to any of our servers. And to my surprise he had!

Code:
2013-06-16 17:06:26 [INFO] ElgarL logged in with entity id 6761728 at ([world] 80.5, 65.0, -527.5)
2013-06-16 17:06:37 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /town
2013-06-16 17:06:57 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /towny
2013-06-16 17:07:01 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /towny ?
2013-06-16 17:07:03 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /town ?
2013-06-16 17:07:07 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /town
2013-06-16 17:07:49 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /town list
2013-06-16 17:08:03 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res
2013-06-16 17:08:11 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res toggle map
2013-06-16 17:08:45 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help
2013-06-16 17:09:17 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 2
2013-06-16 17:09:25 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 3
2013-06-16 17:09:32 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 4
2013-06-16 17:09:39 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 5
2013-06-16 17:09:47 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 6
2013-06-16 17:09:50 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 7
2013-06-16 17:09:57 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 8
2013-06-16 17:10:01 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 9
2013-06-16 17:10:06 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 10
2013-06-16 17:10:09 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 11
2013-06-16 17:10:15 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 12
2013-06-16 17:10:21 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 13
2013-06-16 17:10:32 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /help 14
2013-06-16 17:11:27 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res toggle map
2013-06-16 17:14:40 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /tw
2013-06-16 17:14:47 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res set mode
2013-06-16 17:14:52 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res set
2013-06-16 17:14:59 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res set mode debug
2013-06-16 17:15:06 [INFO] ElgarL issued server command: /res toggle debug
2013-06-16 17:17:42 [INFO] ElgarL lost connection: disconnect.quitting


He spent about a total of 15 mins issuing commands, trying to find something that looked like Towny. And apparently that and the blog post you've mentioned is all the proof he needs that CivCraft uses code from Towny. He's welcome to try and take that to court, but he'd end up paying our court fees.

Quote:
They have also been sent a Cease and Desist Notice and have so far ignored it.


Well, you seem to be talking directly to ElgarL, so perhaps you can ask him to reply to the last email I sent him about this subject. And he either lied to you about not recieving a reply, or you lied to us. Either way, I don't really appreciate the dishonesty. Rather than re-type everything I told ElgarL, I think I'll just post the full contents of the email conversation I've had with him since Sunday. I was reluctant to post this, as I think it is a tad humiliating for ElgarL due to his clear lack of understanding of both copyright law and civility, but since he is now slandering CivCraft and AvrGaming by informing you about this C&D, I no longer feel any obligation to protect his integrity or reputation. (Edited to take out his real name and address)

Code:
CEASE AND DESIST DEMAND
Pursuant to Title 17 of the United States Code

June 16, 2013

Netizen
AVR Gaming

Dear Netizen:

If you are represented by legal counsel, please direct this letter to your attorney immediately and have your attorney notify us of such representation.

We are writing to notify you that your unlawful copying of 'Towny' infringes upon PalmerGames exclusive copyrights. Accordingly, you are hereby directed to

CEASE AND DESIST ALL COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

'PalmerGames ' is the owner of a copyright in various aspects of 'Towny'. Under United States copyright law, PalmerGames ’s copyrights have been in effect since the date that 'Towny' was created. All copyrightable aspects of 'Towny' are copyrighted under United States copyright law.

It has come to our attention that you have been copying and modifying 'Towny' to make a commercial derivitive work, without seeking permission or attributing credit. We have proof from within the Minecraft game and your blog (dated September 19, 2012) of your unlawful copies to preserve as evidence. Your actions constitute copyright infringement in violation of United States copyright laws. Under 17 U.S.C. 504, the consequences of copyright infringement include statutory damages of between $750 and $30,000 per work, at the discretion of the court, and damages of up to $150,000 per work for willful infringement. If you continue to engage in copyright infringement after receiving this letter, your actions will be evidence of “willful infringement.”

We demand that you immediately (A) cease and desist your unlawful copying of 'Towny' and (B) provide us with prompt written assurance within ten (10) days that you will cease and desist from further infringement of PalmerGames ’s copyrighted works.

If you do not comply with this cease and desist demand within this time period, 'PalmerGames' is entitled to use your failure to comply as evidence of “willful infringement” and seek monetary damages and equitable relief for your copyright infringement. In the event you fail to meet this demand, please be advised that 'PalmerGames' has asked us to communicate to you that it will contemplate pursuing all available legal remedies, including seeking monetary damages, injunctive relief, and an order that you pay court costs and attorney’s fees. Your liability and exposure under such legal action could be considerable.

Before taking these steps, however, my client wished to give you one opportunity to discontinue your illegal conduct by complying with this demand within ten (10) days. Accordingly, please sign and return the attached Agreement within ten (10) days to

PalmerGames
XXXXXX
XXXXXx
XXXXXX
XXXXXX

If you or your attorney have any questions, please contact me directly.

Sincerely,

ElgarL


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright Infringement Settlement Agreement

I, ___________________, agree to immediately cease and desist copying 'Towny' in exchange for PalmerGames releasing any and all claims against me for copyright infringement. In the event this agreement is breached by me, Palmergames will be entitled to costs and attorney’s fees in any action brought to enforce this agreement and shall be free to pursue all rights that Palmergames had as of the date of this letter as if this letter had never been signed.

Signed:________________________________

Dated:________________________________



SMTP Mail Sender.

---------------------------------------------------

ElgarL,

I'm sorry that you feel that AVRGaming has unlawfully copied Towny. In reference to your evidence, I do not see a post on our blogs from September 19th, 2012 (did you mean Nov, 19th?) If you could provide a link or even a screenshot of this post, I'd like to personally address any issues you might have with it. I'd also like to see the in-game evidence you have collected, which you claim to be proof of unlawful conduct.

As lead programmer, I can assure you that the CivCraft plugin running on the ShotBow network does not contain any code from Towny. AVRGaming used to run a Minecraft server which used the Towny plugin, so I can understand your confusion. I believe this is probably a simple misunderstanding that we can clear up quickly. Please reply to this email address at your earliest convenience.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,

Netizen

----------------------------------------------------

Netizen,
Thank you for your prompt response. As requested The blog created by Netizen(http://www.the-netizen.com/) dated September 19, 2012 is the one which was mentioned in the cease and desist dated June 16th 2013. This clearly states your CivCraft plugin was based upon and developed from the code base of the Towny plugin, and at that time used many functions directly from Towny by (as he states) 'piggy backs on top of Towny'.
Many features implemented in your current servers are clearly utilizing Towny derived code as a back end. From the above statments and clear observation any court in the land will see it as a derivative work.
We at PalmerGames are offended by your selfish actions. You have taken other peoples work, built upon it and are now profiting from it, all the while giving absolutely no credit and not even asking permission.
We have taken screenshots/videos and other evidence, including testimonials to present before a court if such need arises.
Please abide by the cease and desist or provide supporting evidence to prove your claim that the CivCraft plugin was an original creation not based upon Towny or utilizing any of it's features or code. Note that if such were possible it would also prove that the original creator of CivCraft (Netizen) lied in his blog.
Sincerely,

EgarL (CEO PalmerGames).

-------------------------------------------

EgarL,

I apologize for having offended you. I did not seek any permissions since I was under the impression I did not need to ask permission to run a Minecraft server that used Towny, not the least because it was hosted on Bukkit.org. As far as giving credit goes, I made no secret that Towny was being used on the old Minecraft server, as evidenced by your ability to look up old posts on the subject. However, as I've said, the current incarnation of Civcraft does not use Towny.

At the time of the blog post you've referenced, AVRGaming was running a Minecraft server and using Towny to handle block permissions, so the statement on the blog is accurate. The full quote from the blog reads, "Now [Civcraft] has evolved into a full fledged Civilization inspired mod for Minecraft. It still piggy backs on top of Towny for block permissions, but I’m working at chipping it away as I replace and optimize it for my needs.". As you can see, I was in the process of producing my own plugin while Towny was used on the server I was hosting to provide block permissions. Please also read this post here, in which I publicly announced that Towny will no longer be required. Please also note that the incarnation of Civcraft that used Towny was not used for commercial purposes and that no profits were made by AVRGaming in its use.


When I asked to see the in-game evidence I was hoping to see specific things about my plugin that you believe it to be illegally copied. Would you mind pointing out specific pieces of CivCraft that you believe to be using Towny? I'd like to resolve this issue, however I'm not sure what abiding by your cease and desist would mean. I have no trouble agreeing to not copy Towny code because the Civcraft plugin doesn't use any code copied from Towny. What actions, specifically, would you like to see?

Regards,

Ryan Jones, Lead Programmer, AVRGaming
-------------------------------------------------


I've yet to hear a response to my last email for about 2 days. Apparently his new tactic is to get other people, like yourself, to throw baseless accusations of theft around since he himself has no grounds to stand on and knows that he'd be liable for slander if he did it himself.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:45 am 
Offline
Warrior

Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 3:35 pm
Posts: 94
Wow, I'm really disappointed by Towny.

The case itself is pretty clear to me. Licence info was added 3 days ago.
There is not other licence info (maybe the EPL mentioned on their code.google.com page).

It's also kinda selfish from them to restrict other authors from modifiying the plugin, even though it is a fork of a fork. (Uhm, what about the licence of the forked projects?)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:42 am 
Offline
Settler

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:37 am
Posts: 12
SydMontague wrote:
(Uhm, what about the licence of the forked projects?)



It's forks, all the way down.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:33 am 
Offline
Settler

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 3:05 pm
Posts: 28
The only thing I'm seeing here is a p***ed off programmer (owner of towny, or whatever variant of towny this person developed) kicking himself in the head for not thinking of this idea first, and trying his very best to shut it down before it kills his plugin's popularity.

I would also encourage netizen (if he has not done so already), to run an ip check on both the developer when he signed onto the server, and the poster of this thread (chances are he would be smart enough to use a proxy if they are one and the same, but you never know). You may already have a case of slander on your hands.


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