CivCraft.net Forums

Back to Civcraft.net

It is currently Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:10 am

All times are UTC




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

When should the anti-hack be enforced?
Immediately! Before Arendal's beta6 last WarTime! 69%  69%  [ 29 ]
After Arendal moves to beta7. 10%  10%  [ 4 ]
After beta7 ends. 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Never! This is a terrible idea! (Please say why in comments) 17%  17%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 42
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:25 am 
Offline
Warrior

Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 67
netizen539 wrote:
Rob: Nothing wrong with reporting bugs in support tickets. Some bugs have been reported this way, as well as reporting them via forum PMs. I guess its a bit unfair to say look at the bug reports for exploitable bugs. But the point remains that people are not reporting them as often as they should be. That bit was directed specifically at Arturec due to recent incidents I won't go in to. It was a bit overly snarky so I apologize for that, but the irony couldn't contain itself. If you're reporting problems I have no problem with you. In fact both ETIC and Vindicators have been very good about reporting bugs. Despite the hate they seem to get, they've been doing a lot to help me fix bugs.



Honestly I think that one of the biggest issues is that these people think that is once they report the issue that it is still okay to exploit it and use it to their advantage. In my opinion if the issue is bad enough to report it should not be used...If I find a glitch or a bug I report it and do not use it. These civs may report some of the bugs but then they think it is perfectly okay to exploit the issue till its fixed.

AssassinStingray

_________________
AssassinStingray - Officer

Leader-Lionheart-Grenard Phase 5
Leader-Sappers-Grenard Phase 6 - Winner
Leader-Nine_worlds/Valhöll-Grenard Phase 7
Leader-CivCraft_Studios-Corinth


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:33 pm 
Offline
Warrior

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:35 pm
Posts: 71
AssassinStingray wrote:
netizen539 wrote:
Rob: Nothing wrong with reporting bugs in support tickets. Some bugs have been reported this way, as well as reporting them via forum PMs. I guess its a bit unfair to say look at the bug reports for exploitable bugs. But the point remains that people are not reporting them as often as they should be. That bit was directed specifically at Arturec due to recent incidents I won't go in to. It was a bit overly snarky so I apologize for that, but the irony couldn't contain itself. If you're reporting problems I have no problem with you. In fact both ETIC and Vindicators have been very good about reporting bugs. Despite the hate they seem to get, they've been doing a lot to help me fix bugs.



Honestly I think that one of the biggest issues is that these people think that is once they report the issue that it is still okay to exploit it and use it to their advantage. In my opinion if the issue is bad enough to report it should not be used...If I find a glitch or a bug I report it and do not use it. These civs may report some of the bugs but then they think it is perfectly okay to exploit the issue till its fixed.

AssassinStingray


I agree - while it's REALLY hard to find an exploit without using it once, there's usually an excuse that, "It's been reported. Go ahead and use it." When the iron golem... farming... came out, I debated on the level of exploit it was. I was low on iron anyways (and too lazy to mine) so I never built one in my town.

Anyways, on the actual topic of the anti-hack:

Sorry Net, I don't have time for a full reply regarding questions and concerns. Got a little busy, but I'll try and shoot off a few things real quick.

-Reporting a bug/exploit seems self-rewarding. I don't believe people need rewards for finding these if they're aware of this benefit. (That's a long shot.)

-I LOVE your idea, and most of my questions and concerns have already been asked, so I'll assume there was no reason for a reply on them.

-Arturec, I hate your replies with a passion (of hate). Yes. Yes I do. Try and really gather evidence or filter your thoughts before you blame harmless children. Are there those children? Yes. Are there those adults that are actually BETTER at cheating (sometimes)? Yes. Are children capable of playing CivCraft? Well... they won't tell you their real age if they do not find a reason to, so I guess you'll have to assume that all those Top5 good civs are run by adults, and all those bad city-state towns are the ones run by "drooling 5-year-olds." 1 Timothy 4:12

-The cry for admins seems to still prevail in annoying me. Netizen already said "no, nope, no, nope," and still that's 1/3 of the replies. Sigh... maybe... that mod that he created... HELPS RELIEVE THIS?????

_________________
Image

Open recruitment civ. PM me.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7239

Willing to moderate.

Prevented 1 WarTime immunity bug from occurring.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:53 pm 
Offline
AvRGaming Staff

Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:47 am
Posts: 1622
FlavorfulGecko5 wrote:
Forcing players to install a mod just to use a basic feature of CivCraft isn't the way to go


This client mod is only enforced during WarTime on PvP servers only. For 164/168 hours in a week, nobody needs to use the anti-hack client at all. If players are unwilling to install the mod they can play casual. I really think this is best for everyone because it allows us to clearly focus on the two "kinds" of CivCraft people want to play. Not everyone likes the cut-throat hardcore PvP mode that CivCraft has been up until now. In fact I would say that the majority of Minecraft players would probably prefer the casual mode.

However, if you're interested in skilled PvP it's imperative that the PvP is a fair fight. This is a big reason why there are no admins on the PvP servers. Admins, by using selective enforcement, favoritism and down right cheating can make the PvP servers unfair and completely ruin the game.

Quote:
What if players don't know how to install mods? Is it fair that they can't participate in war time because they don't know how to install it? No.


Most minecraft players know how to install mods, and there are LOTS of tutorials on how to install forge mods. The installation process for the anti-hack is 2 steps.
    1) Download forge and run the installer.
    2) open your minecraft folder and drop the civcraft-ac.jar into the mods folder.

I don't think that's too complicated and IMHO it's a small price to pay for more fair WarTime. If those two steps are too hard I can even provide an installer if need be. Worst case scenario these players will have to play on the casual server until they can figure it out.

Quote:
The solution is to have more admins that can spectate, respond to reports, and ban players during war time. Making Ostrich an admin was a huge step forward in this process and I'm confident in his ability to accurately detect and ban hackers. I'm sure more admins will be added in the coming months as the developers find them trust able. This process is time consuming, but worth it compared to a mod like this.


This is not a complete solution. OstrichMann can't be everywhere at once, and nor does watching players give you proof they are using hacks. Either you allow a certain level of hacking or people are going to get banned who are not hacking simply because they looked suspicious.

Furthermore its also a false-dichotomy. Why not have admins AND the anti-cheat client? It's not either or. However it should be obvious that if we're running the anti-cheat, that the biggest risk to having WarTime become unfair is admins intervening.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:46 pm 
Offline
Prince

Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:14 am
Posts: 128
Quote:
This client mod is only enforced during WarTime on PvP servers only. For 164/168 hours in a week, nobody needs to use the anti-hack client at all.


War time can be the most important hours of the week on CivCraft.

Quote:
However, if you're interested in skilled PvP it's imperative that the PvP is a fair fight. This is a big reason why there are no admins on the PvP servers. Admins, by using selective enforcement, favoritism and down right cheating can make the PvP servers unfair and completely ruin the game.


If you have zero trust in your staff to do things right, then why are there staff? It will obviously be brought up if there is clear 'selective enforcement' or 'favoritism' occurring. If you want PvP to be a fair fight, then lay your trust in people who you know can do the job right.

Quote:
Most minecraft players know how to install mods, and there are LOTS of tutorials on how to install forge mods. The installation process for the anti-hack is 2 steps.


Most does not mean all. You should never assume that players can install mods, even with a video tutorial. On another, considering this is a forge mod, this will clearly conflict with a ton of other commonly used mods on CivCraft that require things such as ModLoader.

Quote:
OstrichMann can't be everywhere at once.


That's obvious. You can't moderate three servers at once if you don't have an easy way to communicate in-between them. But with you and Robosnail, you guys should be able to moderate all three servers if you all are online. And as I said, I'm sure more admins will be added as the months go by.

Quote:
and nor does watching players give you proof they are using hacks. Either you allow a certain level of hacking or people are going to get banned who are not hacking simply because they looked suspicious.


Spectating gives you all the evidence you need 85% of the time. Sometimes you can't reach a solid conclusion, and you can't do anything. That's okay. Sometimes it seems fishy, but the player may also be legit. That's fine. But for every situation where you can't gather sufficient evidence the first time, there will be many, many more where you can. If you seriously can't trust someone like Ostrich to ban hackers properly, make him record his proof. People are humans, not machines. Expect a few false bans that can get appealed if the evidence they recorded is insufficient.

_________________
Moderator
Ex-Rubicon Member
Ex-SpartanOrder Leader


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:04 am 
Offline
Warrior

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:35 pm
Posts: 71
I don't know why I'm replying to your argument, maybe to back up Netizen or let him relax. *shrug*

Quote:
That's obvious. You can't moderate three servers at once if you don't have an easy way to communicate in-between them. But with you and Robosnail, you guys should be able to moderate all three servers if you all are online. And as I said, I'm sure more admins will be added as the months go by.


Netizen and Robosnail might be busy making a mod for their mod that works for them so they can actually make the... mod. :roll:

Quote:
Spectating gives you all the evidence you need 85% of the time. Sometimes you can't reach a solid conclusion, and you can't do anything. That's okay. Sometimes it seems fishy, but the player may also be legit. That's fine. But for every situation where you can't gather sufficient evidence the first time, there will be many, many more where you can. If you seriously can't trust someone like Ostrich to ban hackers properly, make him record his proof. People are humans, not machines. Expect a few false bans that can get appealed if the evidence they recorded is insufficient.


Here's my edit on that. ;)

Anti-hack having a voice: Investigating gives you all the evidence you need 95% of the time. Sometimes you can't reach a solid conclusion, and you can't do anything. That's okay. Sometimes it seems fishy, but the player may also be legit. That's fine. But for every situation where you can't gather sufficient evidence the first time, there will be many, many more where you can. If you seriously can't trust someone like humans to ban hackers properly, make them develop a mod for it. People are humans, not machines. Expect a few false bans that can get appealed if the evidence I recorded is insufficient.

Yeah, I thought that might be both amusing and true. :lol: :D :) ;)

_________________
Image

Open recruitment civ. PM me.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7239

Willing to moderate.

Prevented 1 WarTime immunity bug from occurring.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:20 am 
Offline
Peasant

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:06 am
Posts: 2
I feel like this is an awful idea, Having to get people to install something just to be in wartime. Plus some people might have parental controls blocking install, and it would be a whole bunch of trouble in general and it would be unfair to the people who can't download it.

And I also think you could place a keylogger in it, I'm not saying I don't trust you I am just stating facts of the internet...

_________________
Bigevilwolf
Leader of Civilization
Mayor of Capitol

Arendal, Phase 7


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:53 am 
Offline
Prince

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:45 pm
Posts: 255
people will just find a way around it and claim themself clean while using hack + having it only during wartime leave people free to keep xraying/hacking outside war


bigevilwolf wrote:
I feel like this is an awful idea, Having to get people to install something just to be in wartime. Plus some people might have parental controls blocking install, and it would be a whole bunch of trouble in general and it would be unfair to the people who can't download it.

And I also think you could place a keylogger in it, I'm not saying I don't trust you I am just stating facts of the internet...


if you dont trust netizen you can always scan it + I dont think parental control can block a mod

_________________
Phase 4 : Leader of Lightz , mayor of capitol Illumina #3
Phase 5 : Leader of Lightz , mayor of capitol Illumina #1 , won
Phase 6 : Leader of Lightz , mayor of capitol Unicorn #1
Phase 7 : Leader of Lightz , mayor of capitol Illumina #1 , won


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:47 pm 
Offline
Prince

Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:06 am
Posts: 219
After looking at it, I can promise you there is no keylogger in it.
Anyway, simply think about it, if there was, there would need to be an output somewhere, no? This would either be a file or a connection with Netizen_secret_keylogger_server_to_rule_them_all. If you still think there can be a keylogger, well, check all your internet traffic when you use it and you should see a file that shouldn't be there...

But more seriously, you installed minecraft? You use a web browser? You probably play some other games too... What tells you there is no key logger in them too?

It's a .jar, there is no installation at all, so no parental control will block this. Who can't download it? I mean, it's like 18ko in size... Where's the trouble? You install forge, with the installer, you place it in your mod folder, and done!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:37 pm 
Offline
AvRGaming Staff

Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:47 am
Posts: 1622
bigevilwolf wrote:
I feel like this is an awful idea, Having to get people to install something just to be in wartime. Plus some people might have parental controls blocking install, and it would be a whole bunch of trouble in general and it would be unfair to the people who can't download it.

And I also think you could place a keylogger in it, I'm not saying I don't trust you I am just stating facts of the internet...


If you don't want to use the anti-hack mod, you can always play on the casual server as it doesn't require it. But I assure you there is no keylogger in it. If you've downloaded any hacks though (like ever) they are way more likely to contain keyloggers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:49 pm 
Offline
Peasant

Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:22 pm
Posts: 7
Netizen, this is awesome news.

Might i suggest just going the extra distance, compile an official CivCraft client, include in it Optifine and Rei's (maybe anything else that is officially supported), and release it for everyone to use.
This will level the playing field on everyone getting access to officially supported mod features, like the minimap (an invaluable tool for seeing chunk borders)
It will make these features more accessible to the general players.
I believe it would be easier for you to validate a client's integrity if they where all the same and could simply be hashed, rather than having to look through the client for supported vs unsupported mods and perhaps missing unknown custom modifications.

Furthermore, include official texture pack, and lock out the ability to use custom textures which allow "Xray" vision.

Lastly, seriously consider requiring the use of the custom client to leave the starting city on non-casual servers.
War is not the only time when client side modifications can be used to gain an advantage in CivCraft.
In fact, i'd wager most of the deciding factors in who is going to win do not actually come from direct PVP in war, but in building up your civilization technology, infrastructure, and gearing.

good luck, and thank you sir !


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group